Islam is probably the least understood and most demonized religion today. The critics of Islam have created this persona based primarily on misconceptions, ignorance and malice. You’ve probably heard of some of the following common misconceptions about Islam.
Misconception # 1: Violence and Terrorism is the Muslim Creed
Islam and Muslims have become synonymous with terms like terrorism, extremism and fundamentalism. The involvement of some so-called Muslims in the acts of terrorism in the past few decades does not justify the labeling of a whole faith and its people as terrorists. Nobody called Timothy McVeigh a Christian terrorist after the Oklahoma bombing in the 90’s, neither is the IRA labeled as a Christian terrorist group, so why is it that when a Muslim does something wrong it is the fault of his religion?
Apparently, logical arguments do not carry any weight in this debate, which is fueled by sensationalism and vested interests at the highest levels of governments. Citing verses of the Qur’an out of the context is the favorite tactic of the proponents of this misconception. There are several verses in the Qur’an that clearly state the opposite of this misconception. For example, “Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors.” (Qur’an 2:190). Another verse says, “If they seek peace, then seek you peace.” (Qur’an 8:61)
Misconception #2: Jihad Means Killing Non-Muslims
If opposition to Islam can be summarized today in one word, it is ‘Jihad’; the all-inclusive term for Islam bashing. Disregarding its true meaning and historical perspective, jihad is decisively equated with the violence that has been perpetrated in the last few decades in the name of Islam by individuals. There are several forms of Jihad; an armed struggle which may involve killing the enemy is ‘Qital’, which is considered by most non-Muslims to be the only form of Jihad. However, according to Islam, one of the most important types of ‘Jihad’ is ‘Jihad bil nafs’ (struggle against the self), every other struggle stems out of this. Jihad bil nafs involves constantly struggling to overcome and control our animal desires.
Misconception #3: Women are Oppressed in Islam
Saving Muslim women from the ‘tyranny’ of Islam is one of the favorite rallying cries of the people who consider Islam an evil force. Just like many other misdeeds wrongly attributed to Islam rather than to the individuals who commit them, unfair treatment of women is also considered to be the Islamic way of treating women. Setting aside the malicious propaganda, the reason behind this misconception is probably the fact that Islamic teachings about the role, responsibilities, status and treatment of women are judged according to the western practices and beliefs. If anything, Islam liberated the women in Arabia by giving them rights that were unheard of at that time in most nations. The stereotype of veil wearing, home-bound Muslim woman is used to argue that women are oppressed. However, this viewpoint is completely devoid of the knowledge of the status and rights of Muslim women. If we look into how other major religions look at women, we will find surprising revelations. In the New Testament, St. Paul declares, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don’t permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” In contrast, this is what Qur’an has to say, “Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him/her we will give a new life that is good and pure, and we will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.” (16:97)
The right to hold property is considered to be fundamental for human beings, yet no major religion other than Islam actually allowed women to have property. Not only this but Muslim women have full control of their property and their husbands have no share in it.
Misconception #4: Muslims don’t Believe in Jesus
Many Christians are made to believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) and other prophets are not considered by Muslims as God’s messengers. A cursory reading of Qur’an or other Islamic literature shows that Muslims remember all of the prophets mentioned in the Christian and Judaic scriptures with great respect and reverence. Jesus has been mentioned in Qur’an in several places such as “O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and shall be of the righteous.”(Qur’an chapter 3)
Misconception #5: Propagation of Islam is the result of Force
This misconception may be the result of making wrong inferences from the early Islamic history about the expansion of the Muslim state up to the time of Caliph Umar Farooq. The Muslim state indeed spread very quickly in the early years, but the conversion to Islam was never forced upon the people of the conquered territories. If anything, the Qur’an instructs Muslims to deal with them in a kind and just manner “God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for [your] faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just.” (Qur’an 60:8). The most clear-cut statement against conversion by force or coercion comes straight from the Qur’an, “There is no compulsion (or coercion) in the religion (Islam)” (2:256)
The comments of T.W. Arnold on this matter are evidence of the folly of this misconception “… of any organized attempt to force the acceptance of Islam on the non-Muslim population, or of any systematic persecution intended to stamp out the Christian religion, we hear nothing. Had the caliphs chosen to adopt either course of action, they might have swept away Christianity as easily as Ferdinand and Isabella drove Islam out of Spain ….So that the very survival of these Churches to the present day is a strong proof of the generally tolerant attitude of the Mohammedan governments towards them.”
Another historian De lacey O’Leary also negates this myth, “History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.”
Furthermore, it must be pointed out that Muslims ruled and fully controlled India for 800 years and Egypt for even longer than that. Yet the vast majority of the population in India remains Hindu till today, and a small minority of Coptic Christians remains in Egypt today. If Muslims practiced forced conversions there is no way such communities could have survived for over a millennium.
Misconception #6: Islam is Intolerant of Other Religions
Religious intolerance is high on the charge-sheet against Islam and Muslims. Many non-Muslims believe that Islam does not tolerate other religions and it instructs Muslims to kill all the infidels. Equating the actions of a handful of bad apples with the teachings of Islam about people of other faiths is a grave injustice. There are numerous examples throughout Islamic history that clearly show the extent of religious tolerance in Islam. What could better exemplify it than the verses from the Qur’an and ahadith of Muhammad (pbuh).
“There is no compulsion (or coercion) in the religion (Islam)” (2:256)
“Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Sunnan Abu Dawud)
Misconception #7: Muslims are Savages with no Regard for Culture and Civilization
Many texts portray Muslims as uncivilized and barbaric people but nothing could be further from the truth. Even a cursory glance at history proves otherwise. War is one instance where showing no mercy is considered to be a tactic. Islam, on the other hand, does not allow Muslim armies to mutilate the dead, kill children or elderly, destroy crops, trees, livestock etc., demolish buildings, harm civilians and break agreements/pacts. With clear rules of engagement like these for war, it would be grossly unfair to call Muslims barbaric.
The influence and contributions of Muslims towards culture and science are widely known and acknowledged by scholars. “It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely certain that but for them, it would not have assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution,” Robert Briffault, a social anthropologist.
Misconception #8: Islam was founded by Muhammad (peace be upon him)
Despite an abundance of literature on Islam, there are some who believe that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) founded Islam and Muslims worship him as well as Allah. Any serious attempt to learn about Islam will right away debunk this misconception. In order to enter into the fold of Islam, a person must pronounce the Shahadah (the testimony of faith); the meaning of which is
“I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad (SAW) is His slave and messenger”..
Also in chapter 33 of the Qur’an it is stated, “O Prophet, verily We have sent you as a witness and a bearer of glad tidings and a warner and as one who invites unto God by His leave and as an illuminating lamp.”
Misconception #9: At least Four Wives for Muslim Men
Some aspects of Muslim culture have been universally accepted as the defacto standard such as four wives for Muslim men. Most westerners believe that every Muslim has a ‘harem’ with at least four wives. First of all, it should be clearly understood that it is an option not a compulsion. There are social and cultural reasons behind the practice of polygamy which can only be understood with the knowledge of Arab society at that time. There are strict conditions that must be met such as equal treatment of the wives. It surprises me that the people who make a huge fuss about polygamy in Islam, have no issue with promiscuity in western cultures where extra-marital relationships and children born out of wedlock are accepted with open arms.
Misconception #10: The Crescent and Star is the Symbol of Islam
It is a common misconception even among Muslims that the crescent moon and star is the official symbol of Islam. However, in the days of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) Muslims did not have a symbol and they used solid-colored flags. In fact, the crescent was adopted as a symbol by the Turks during Ottoman Empire’s conquest of Constantinople.
MashAllah!! jazaakAllah khair brother for writing this. I am going to have to share this with my family. I am a new revert to Islam and this will be very beneficial in answering the ridiculous comments that my family throws at me. Allahu Akbar!!
I am addressing to those brothers and sisters (irrespective of any faith or ideology) trying to make their point /suggestions/opinions in the forum on the matter of any religion ………..
‘What are your intensions when you enter a forum for discussion on a Religious Matter?’ Is it:
1) Are you trying to prove your superiority of your faith/belief over others or impose your beliefs?
2) Do you want to explore ones ideology while on Inter religious dialogue /debate over a topic….. ?
3) Simply praise the Author for posting a good article which you could not possibly write…?
4) Contradict or be critical of ones ideology ….?
5) Dont give a Damn about any thing …just make your point….?
6) Really willing to learn and get knowledge and bring their undersanding into practice…?
7) Just surfing through comments ….to check who has made his/her point well placed as a mere spectator….?
8) Abuse and Maline Critics…?
Having answered anyone of the above question….I have yet another question
….but before that , please realise that you proclaim to have the way of life or your goal in life which you have answered .
still getting puzzled …… answer this
Do you claim to be a good human being than others ?
Yes:Dont judge your self let others think that of you …..Proof it atleast once in your life span … not to show off others atleast to your ownself….. If you have brought a smile on someones face then you may think that your prayers are Answered and Goals fulfilled to be a Good Human being atleast…….
No: Its your time to be one…… start working on it? Life is too short for mere discussion…
In the end I would like to say to everyone ‘ Please clear your Intensions !!!!’
Thanks for your time……. I was fulfilling my goals to be a better human being!! :-)
I am not going to say my opinions on all of the points that have been brought up but I would like to clarify one thing. Although some Copts in a mostly Coptic Egypt did willingly convert to Islam due to the enormous tax they were ford to pay simply for being Christian, it is historical fact that the Copts between 622 – 1021 ad were indeed forced into Islam. The popes and monks during this time were imprisoned, whole villages were pillaged, they were flogged and branded, their houses and property were taken from them, they had limbs amputated and were fired from their jobs, thy were forced into the dessert without any food or water. They were slaughtered in every sense of the word. Even the Muslim historian al-makrizi said “From that time they were in subjection throughout the Egyptian territory, and their power was definitely crushed. None of them had the power to revolt or even resist the government; the Muslims were in the majority in the villages.” My point is although it may not be the intention of Islam to force conversions it is something that has happened in history. I am a Coptic Christian Egyptian and I must be honest when I say I am nervous for my fellow Copts living in Egypt as we speak for the future is not very optimistic as far as a true free Egypt with rights for all of it’s citizens and not just it’s Muslim majority.
I am currently living in the West and found this article to be enlightening. What I would like to stress is we spend too much energy explaining our differences instead of coming together on our similarities.
MASHALLAH…JASA KUMULLAHU KHAIRAN…may ALLAHU subhana watala reward u in abundance…
Most importantly to note that in the early days of Islam, women had right to own property and do business. this was the case at the time of the Holy Prophet himself, whereas in western societies, even in Britain, as late as the twentieth century women did not have the right to own property. everything belonged either to their father or husband. it’s only recently that they have amended their laws to give more freedom to their women. still some ignorant people say that women have no freedom in Islam. can there be a great injustice than this?
OMG; ABSOLUTELY MAGNIFICENT ARTICLE… COUDNT POSSIBLY PUT THOSE POINTS IN A BETTER WAY.. JAZAAKALLAH WHOEVER WROTE THIS AND IF AFTER THIS ARTICLE PEOPLE ARE STILL ”SKEPTIC” ABOUT ISLAM THEN THEIR TAPPED IN THE HEAD… AND US MUSLIMS KNOW MORE ABOUT OUR RELIGION THAT OTHERS SO THEY CANT JUDGE US LIKE THAT; BESIDES MANY NON-MUSLIM MOTHERS THAT HAVE REVERT SONS AGREE THAT EVER SINCE THEY REVERTED TO ISLAM THEIR MANNERS, VIEWS AND GOALS HAVE BECOME MUCH MORE FRUITFUL AND RESPECTFUL THAN EVER… ALLAHU AKBAR; ONE SACRED RELIGION YOU’VE GOT THEIR PEOPLE.. FOLLOW IT AS IT SHOULD BE…
Before ISLAM women and little girls are treated badly, they are opressed in the jahiliyya period.This is a case which make all people ashamed.I personally do feel sad for those bad things done in the past but I thank God because He sent us Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him), gave us the most beautiful religion ever and prevented all these oppressions.
Actually i am glad to be enlighten.And everything has been discussed.But i will just add a little bit.regarding the issue of women Are deprived of their right.When we re -bounced back to jahiliyya period, the women are been prosecuted mysteriously.But with the arriving of Islam, everything has been putting to rest.Thank you.
This article is really helpful for those people who have some questions about Islam because it explains some points which confuse them.It’s an irrefutable fact that Islam is being misunderstood by many people because of ignorance. We can cope with this ignorance by reading,enlightenment,awareness and broadening our mind.Let’s share these misconceptions with as many people as we could. Perhaps we may give an answer to their questions.Remember! Ignorance is the reason for being a non-Muslim.
THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTION TOWARDS MUSLIM,GOD BLESS YOU. SIR,MY QUESTION, IS TO KNOW WHEN A MUSLIM AND THE CONDITION WARRANT HIM TO GO ON JIHAD ACCORDING TO THE QURAN.
Hats off to Mr.Absar Kazmi what a wonderfull job you did. Mashallah can u tell how can i get to the article you posted regularly on internet & if you have any page on Facebook than plz let me now.
May Allah Bless you
Sesungguhnya tiada guna kamu berdebat dengan mereka yang tidak mengakui agama Allah S.W.T itu adalah agama yang benar dan Nabi Muhammad S.A.W itu adalah pesuruh Allah kerana sudah jelas dan nyata di dalam Al-Quran Surah Al-Baqarah ayat ke-6, Allah S.W.T menyebut:
“Sesungguhnya orang-orang kafir (yang tidak akan beriman), sama sahaja kepada mereka: sama ada engkau beri amaran kepadanya atau engkau tidak beri amaran, mereka tidak akan beriman.”
Biarlah mereka dengan ‘iman’ mereka dan biarlah kita selaku hamba kepada Allah Yang Maha Esa berserah kepada-Nya dan melakukan apa yang di suruh oleh Nya dan meninggalkan segala larangan-Nya. Insya-Allah, kita yang beriman kepada Allah dan Rasul-Nya akan mendapat petunjuk dan hidayah daripada Allah S.W.T.
First of all, I really appreciate the facts have been placed in the right way. But unfortunately, its because of some uneducated Muslims who lack knowledge about their own religion have led to this criticism.
Even today, ask to some other Muslim, “Why are you a Muslim?” he/she has no clue! but do we know why we are Muslims or why do we follow Islam? Sorry to say this, its because of lack of knowledge about our won religion. We are lusty towards learning things which lead nowhere. Back then the Arabs we considered to be the most knowledgeable people in the world they had the power of Qur’an. They’ve invented so many things but no one knows about it. Today we only know that Galileo invented telescope and he was the one who told the earth rotates around the sun. This has been mentioned in Qur’an, centuries before when Galileo was not even born.
This is only one of the examples from many such fact. More can be provided if anyone is interested.
“Knowledge can never be lost. The more you share the more you gain!!!”
Very good article indeed! Let’s continue to educate the ignorance. Nothing sadder than having your muslims brethren to have the same misconception towards the greatest gift from Allah i.e. Islam
Jazak Allah Khair,
Beautiful Article, highly aprreciated
Masha Allah…May Allah bless the author and we the readers with Aljannah Firdaus…and may He also increase our knowledge about Islam and our Iman too.
What I find most deplorable is the fact that some people who are downright discriminative (in general) and racist are those who gather info on Islam only from sources created and maintained by those aiming at smearing Islam and its followers. Not too mention, since the “West” literally has major control over global information system, thus Islam has also been “interpreted” by Western standard as well. Some interpretations are indeed objective..but the rest are subjective. Those who study or have studied ‘media’ in academic setting will know what media can do in shaping and manipulating people perceptions…
I hope that people will reflect the way treat others and the way they see themselves. It is time to grow mature, broad-minded, and happy :)
dear brother pls give me some good strong valid points to make people aware of why they should not go to dargas and believe that it is not a part of our ritual.
Misconception #11: Muslims are arabs
I dont know the statistics but I read there are more muslims on the asian continent then in the middle east/north africa. I myself being italian canadian :)
Thank you all for participating. At this point we feel that it is in the best interests of everyone that we close the comments on this article. The original intent for inviting comments on this article was in order to have an open, friendly, fruitful discussion, where people who are seeking after the truth of Islam may pose their questions. The idea was for people to come to understand one another so that many misconceptions could be put to rest.
However, over the past few weeks it has become clear that just the opposite has begun to happen. Many people have begun arguing it seems simply to defend their own preconceived notions rather than being open to considering other perspectives and arriving at the truth. Others have started using this forum to hurl insults at one another’s faiths. This is ethically and morally wrong, and moreover it is forbidden in Islam.
I will just close off this discussion with a few necessary clarifications:
1. Temporary Marriages/Mutaa – I am not sure why this issue was brought up, as anyone who has a basic understanding of Islam and its history knows that such practices are forbidden in Islam. Just as alcohol, interest and other practices were initially permitted in Islam because they were so deeply ingrained in Arab culture, similar is the case of temporary marriages. However, soon this practice was explicitly forbidden by the Prophet (PBUH) along with alcohol, interest, etc. The Qur’an doesn’t speak on mutaa at all, so there is no reason to make such accusations that the Qur’an permitted it. If some misguided Muslims practice it still, then many Muslims also drink alcohol, partake in interest, commit adultery, and many other sinful acts. There is no way to justify such practices by using the Qur’an.
2. Islam brought nothing new – Again, this is just repeating what we have been trying to emphasize all along. It is absolutely true that Islam didn’t bring anything incredibly new because as with all Prophets of the past, the mission of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was to renew the pure original religion that was revealed by God to man. All Prophets were sent to call man back to his original purpose of creation: to worship God alone and not associate anything else with him, i.e. Tauheed. All the prophets of the past were commanded to establish prayer and give charity and most were commanded to fast. However, as we pointed out earlier, each of the earlier prophets was sent to a specific group or nation, but Muhammad (PBUH) was sent to all of mankind. He was the ‘Mercy to all the worlds’. And the Qur’an was as itself declares: ‘A remembrance for all the worlds’. This was the only difference. Of course the Arabs knew who Allah is even before the advent of Muhammad (PBUH)… however they had begun worshiping idols along with Allah, that is what the problem was. Again there was no need to argue on this issue.
3. Sexual relations in Paradise – Please understand… Islam is the natural faith (Al-Deen ul Fitrah). The faith which is in complete harmony with human nature. Thus, it does not call upon man to become a monk and suppress his natural human desires, rather it guides man to what is the best way for fulfilling those desires. Therefore, Islam does not look upon sex as something bad or ungodly or something to be ashamed of. Rather it encourages men and women to procreate in a manner which is in the best interests of themselves and their society. It encourages men and women to enjoy each other and enjoy sexual relations in the holy institution of marriage. However it forbids adultery and fornication, because both of these things are harmful to the family as well as to the society at large. So Muslims have no problem with sexual relations in Paradise. in fact I find it strange that someone would suggest this as something bad. Sex is one of the things that human being enjoy most on earth, so what is wrong with looking forward to it in Paradise?? If God has allowed sex on earth, why should He forbid it in Paradise??
4. If a majority of people hold a certain opinion about a group of people, then that opinion becomes fact – Whoever really believes in this sort of logic, I honestly feel very sorry for them and sincerely pray that they go out into the world, meet people from backgrounds, and hopefully this will help them to change their opinion. If people just stuck to this sort of logic, then it would have been a fact that all Muslims are Arab, all Jews only care about money, all blacks are stupid and God knows what else. I hope whoever wrote that takes the time to reflect and reconsider on this logic.
5. Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslim – Again. I am at a loss for words with this logic. But I will try and respond. If you take the time to look, you will find that there are many many organizations that have been labeled as terrorists by major world governments and these organizations have nothing at all to do with Islam. The IRA, FARC, the ANC, and a number of others spring to mind immediately. However, I do hope that the person who made this comment goes a bit further to determine why it is that such organizations have been labeled as terrorists. If Robin Hood was alive today, he would have been labeled as a terrorist. Why? Because although he was working for the good of the people, this was against the interests of the powers that be. Similarly was the case with Che Guevera, Sitting Bull, Malcolm X, Bantu Steven Biku, William Wallace, Umar Mukhtar and numerous others. They were called terrorists because they refused to bow down to oppression and imperialism. They were called terrorists and extremists because they fought for their rights, but this was not in the interests of those in power. Similarly many Muslims today are called terrorists because they refuse to bow down and be ruled by Western appointed dictators, because they refuse to be pushed off the their lands by foreign occupiers, and because they refuse to being told what they should and what they should not believe by Godless, secular foreigners.
Finally, I would remind all those reading this that you can argue all you want, but on the Day of Judgement it will be each of us standing in front of God alone. And we won’t be able to argue with Him. He knows what is in my heart and what is in your heart. He knows which of us has been asking questions sincerely seeking the truth about Him, and which of us has been doing it only to argue, or to show off how much knowledge we have, or simply to level insults at one another. I request everyone, especially myself to Fear God before making statements about Him.
Well, you are right about having sex in heaven, that is the core of your religion anyways. your 70 figures are all in your ahadiat, you can’t even pray properly without them. And by the way whatever happened to all the contradicting ahadiat, well man made things do tend to go wrong. there is no way to justify corruptibility in heaven, no matter how you try to defend it.
By your 10 years in Judeo-Christianity, you think that makes you an authority….yawn yawn yawn. But frankly if Bedouins could get a hook of your teachings, I do not think anyone else would need any sheikh to learn it, no rocket science there, its a small book anyway. By the way what happened to tafsirs other than you listed, those that tend to contradict these, I think you just happened to skip those, what a shame.
About personal insults, I don’t care what you say. Say all you like. I really do not mind that. About your claims about me, you really can read minds and thoughts? bravo for that. Who made you God?
You have not still refuted logically anyone of my criticisms, just booing off doesn’t make you right. I can play that game too, but sorry I am not your type. I don’t want to be either. I thank God I am not a Muslim, and I am proud that my family converted from Muslims, I couldn’t stand these materialistic practices either. God is holy, if you’re having sex in heaven, well, you go all the way around it and the best so called reason you had was, well its alright with you. As i said before, that is the best answer you can give. lol as a matter of fact it is the only answer you have, no wonder people look at these practices as disgusting. You are as honest as your options bud.
Mut’ta and misyar are conflicts among shi’s and sunni’s, and they have expiry dates to begin with. people in the middle east call it pimping under the umbrella, the fact that it is backed up by religious teachings.
I am not attacking Islam, Islam is attacking Islam, and that is why the world is becoming disgusted by it. So what you say, doesn’t hold any weight in light of the fact that you are showing the world your teachings practically. Good luck with that..
why would you make it a contest on, “barking up the wrong tree”…lol…you are typical Muslim aren’t you, picking up a fight, (ooops, jihad) the first chance you get.
But anyways, keep up the silly six year old reasoning .You are quite good at it. This kind of talk wouldn’t even hold for 5 minutes in an educated crowd.
There is a reason me and Absar ended it the better way around, but your type just wants to muddy the issue. hell, go on, the points you are raising are common knowledge among us, we have our way to do things. And mind you we are the world’s largest religion, I wouldn’t even take your rambling seriously had it not been for respect that I show to people who can’t logically reason.
I closed this case long ago, but you just couldn’t hold your ego, anyways, not my problem. I can sleep easily, end of story. And too bad that the response you might write back will straight go to my junk folder, I can see that it is right there where your reasoning actually belongs, bud.
For “John A. David”:
Sorry bub, you are not going to back out that easily without me firing the salvo. As at the moment, you have still failed to respond or answer to the gross misdirections that you have earlier introduced in the post that I originally replied to you, namely:
1. Your claim that “…the oldest copies of the new testament are from the 1st century A.D”.
Status: FALSE CLAIM. No such “copy” exists. The oldest Mss are from the SECOND CENTURY and the oldest among them is the P52 Mss, of which is no bigger than a credit card. The official name for that papyrus is “John Rylands P457”, which anyone can find simply by using Google.
This particular claim of yours, when taken to task by yours truly, mysteriously “disappeared” in the latter two posts of yours. Now I wonder, wonder why?
2. Another claim of yours: “please also cite references of quran about the changing of Bible.”
Status: ANSWERED. Qur’an, 2:77-79 was quoted to you but “strangely” (or come to think of it, not too strange after all), you wanted to turn yourself into a Sheikh and started disputing the evidence. And this is despite Ibn Kathir, commenting on this verse, described exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. So does Al-Jalalayn. And so does Al-Wahidi. The list goes on.
How is this verse made to infer that “I would say you had to stretch it very far to imply that. It could have been for your sahabi’s, anyone.” is a rather silly assumption to make (not to mention an anachronism). Clearly you have not been reading the Qur’an at all and have instead been relying on whatever Christian missionary material that you come across and, thinking you can fool the Muslims, elected yourself to become an “expert” on Islam. Sorry dude, that isn’t going to work!
There is more, but I think you would have to account for thse two first, not to mention your lack of response to the promise made by Jesus that he will be giving you PIRATE TREASURE in Paradise (Matthew 19:21). So let me see, you are a Christian because you have a lust for PIRATE TREASURE?
Three major points still left unanswered by you. Now let’s move on to the rest of your latest silly innuendos here:
“Well, you are right about having sex in heaven, that is the core of your religion anyways.”
Actually you are quite mistaken. Sex is not the core of Islam, but it is in Christianity. For example, Ezekiel 23 has some of the most lurid details ever known, it is something you shouldn’t allow your children to read. Why not recite THIS PASSAGE in public, and see what happens?
Ezekiel 23:19-20 “Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.”
So it seems that you are quite off the mark when you say that sex is the core of Islam.
“your 70 figures are all in your ahadiat”
LOL. At first I thought this was a typo or a spelling error but you have used this word “ahadiat”, “ahadiat” quite frequently throughout this page as well. So it seems you do really think that this word “AHADIAT” exists. Sorry to break it to you, dude, but THERE IS NO SUCH WORD “AHADIAT” USED IN ARABIC OR ISLAMIC LITERATURE. Since you self-styled yourself as the so-called “expert” in Islam, I won’t be revealing to you what the real, correct word is. I’ll leave it to your great prowess and intellect in Islamic studies to figure out what is the correct term used by Muslims when describing the body of traditions reported from the Prophet, upon whom be peace.
So sorry sir, there are no “70 figures” in “my ahadiat” because there never was such a thing called “Ahadiat”!
“By your 10 years in Judeo-Christianity, you think that makes you an authority”
Speak for yourself, “Ahadiat” (ROTFL!) expert….making up terms and self-styling yourself as an “Islamic expert” isn’t something that is going to win you brownie points.
“About personal insults, I don’t care what you say.”
And since when do I care about what YOU have to say?
As for this message being “spam inboxed” by you, here’s another surprise for you…I am not emailing you at all, I don’t even know your e-mail address, so how can you “spam inbox” my e-mails?? Another ROTFL. I am leaving this comment on this page for the benefit of Muslims and non-Muslims who may come across this page and after reading this exchange, will realise how silly you really look throughout this “conversation”, starting with the gross IGNORANCE about non-existent “first century NT Mss (LOL!), and your nonsensical interpretation of Qur’an, 2:77-79 (double LOL!) and yes, what about the PIRATE TREASURE in Paradise that you Christians are lusting after? Arrr…
I have to say, however, that the “Ahadiat” nonsense really takes the cake (ROTFL!). It really shows your real “expertise” in Islam…which is nil.
Go ahead and sleep well, because by the time you wake up, people would have finished reading this comment from me and they will come to realise that you are just an ignorant person who doesn’t even know that the word “Ahadiat” doesn’t exist at all in Islamic lexicon (among other things).
When there is a widespread view which goes in sync about a particular community to the rest of the world..it doesn’t remain a myth anymore..all such beliefs come from hard facts being seen over many years by the people from other communities..and the very reason why such articles are being written is because, these beliefs (called as “myths” here by the writer himself) are nothing else but facts or truths..
I agree to the insights given by Ecks to a greater extent..The idea is not to create a negative feeling here, but to convey the message to the writer or the rest who agree is that, don’t try to justify yourself..because you don’t have to..the more you try to justify your community or religion, the more obvious it is that somewhere deep down you too understand that you are incorrect..Surprisingly, I can’t seem to find a single non-muslim person who has read and agreed to the pointers mentioned in the article..!
I myself am not religious by nature..I m more of a spiritual person..and I encourage the idea of realizing the power of one’s own spirituality than preaching your own religion to others. I look at God as one power..be it Allah, Christ or Krisna etc.
Someone above tried to justify saying that women in islam are liberated and hence they are not accountable to men and rather only to God. If tht’s the case, why doesn’t the religion allow women to stay and lead a liberal life without barring them within hijabs? all your reasoning looks really immature, illogical and unethical to the rest of the world. Even many muslim friends of mine who have logical minds condemn this idea.
And again it’s been said above while defending the belief of violence in Islam, that this world would have been a much more peaceful place to live if all were from Islam. By saying that you are trying to put down the rest of the communities and religions and putting up your ignorant and violent side to others. Having said that, do you have a justification for the fact that why “Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims!?”
There will be rather stronger evidences and prominent facts and ideologies coming from your own beliefs and religion which can be put against you and your justifications which you are trying to portray above. So, better not try to show the whole world that you are the best and the rest are worst. Learn to appreciate everyone, every religion and community, open up your mind, move with time and only then you will earn appreciation for your own community and religion!
Replying to Anonymous:
“When there is a widespread view which goes in sync about a particular community to the rest of the world..it doesn’t remain a myth anymore..all such beliefs come from hard facts being seen over many years by the people from other communities”
I wonder why you have so much time on your hands writing such a long winded sentence when all you could say is “I read the article but I don’t believe a word of it because other people also believe the myths that the article was trying to answer”?
Might as well come clean and be honest with yourself. Your prejudices about Islam has blinded you to such an extent that you are willing to actually believe the lies said about it, instead of having an open mind and see the other side of the fence. That attitude is very much in contrast to what you claim about yourself, that:
“I m more of a spiritual person..and I encourage the idea of realizing the power of one’s own spirituality than preaching your own religion to others.”
That self-description of yourself also sounds hollow when you went ahead lambasting Muslim women who wear the hijab (head-cover):
“Someone above tried to justify saying that women in islam are liberated and hence they are not accountable to men and rather only to God. If tht’s the case, why doesn’t the religion allow women to stay and lead a liberal life without barring them within hijabs?”
Why should Islam allow women to stay uncovered when it risks exposing them to harm and various social problems that will cause them to be regarded as mere sex objects? The reality of this world is that women who do not guard their modesty are used and treated less than a human being…despite the claims of those who say those who choose to wear hijab are “unliberated”. What benefit is there for a woman to walk around topless on the streets, when she will become easy prey for every sex predator out there? This talk of “liberation” and “freedom” for women who wear sexy attire is nothing more than sexist, intended to feed the ego of men who actually enjoy such things.
Deny it all you want, but between a woman who wears a hijab and a woman who goes topless, which you will choose as a target? The answer is quite obvious.
“do you have a justification for the fact that why “Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims!?”
Last I checked, the ETA, Tamil Tigers, IRA and other such groups are not Muslims. And yet they are in the CIA’s list of terrorist groups. So how such an adage be considered true?
this time I apologize for the long post but your questions require details.
For following a role model, there is a difference between the approach of Christianity and Islam. while you are told to follow your prophet, we told to follow Jesus and no one else (it does not imply that we don’t revere any other prophets, no), so the role model is Jesus and since he is without sin and error that makes him the perfect example, since in Christianity he is more than a prophet. The message of the Bible is that all have sinned except Christ. And therefore his sacrifice redeems everyone, because he is sinless.and therefore everyone needs grace to be free and forgiven, no other way around it.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ecclesiastes 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.
As for your assumption, if a person as you say indulges in immoral acts he is not to be the role model even when he is forgiven.
see the verses:
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:13-20
“Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. …
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
“I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
I do not think you will need more clarification than the above though there are still a lot of verses i haven’t quote. If you have any question regarding these verse, then you can ask me or a swift way would be to Google up a good commentary of the passage.
About right of women and the verses you quote, you should have also seen their commentaries but to summarize, there is no question among Christians about rights of women. there is a fundamental difference, while the Islamic law gives a law for a state, much like the Jewish law, the Christians laws are not purely legalistic (since the founding of a state for the religion is not mandatory) in nature and thus interpreted on their spiritual meanings. for example, women are granted equal rights unquestionably. About being in the church I wrote to you earlier that there were problems in newly convert women in roman and Greek cities and these verses were written in that context. About the verse in genesis, i do not see how this makes the women inferior at all, ruling over does not necessarily mean her rights are limited. if a caliph rules over you, he may have more privileges but the rights remain the same as the basic rights of a common man.
It is though interesting to note that while eve is punished in this verse, the lord did not punish her alone but Adam as well so she was not blamed alone. The verse in 1-Timothy 2:11-14 is more of a explanation than a blame. And from such explanation Paul was again issuing a command in the same spirit he had written to the Corinthians that they women be silent in the church. Timothy to whom Paul wrote this message was a pastor in one of the leading and largest cities of ancient Rome, so you can pretty much see why he would say that. It would also help if you see that this was not a command from God but a management advice or instruction he was giving to timothy.
If you look around in God fearing Christianity you will always see women treated equally, in social and even legal matters. Much of human rights are from the Biblical maxims including the golden rule. (it is surely open to debate though.). Evan if I agree with you that a women have equal rights in Islam, I already pointed out to you that such social status for women existed before Islam. It is certainly not something new as often is ascribed, it was for the Bedouins of Arab though.
If you consider this then it becomes easy to understand that the relationship of the husband and wife, husband ruling over wife and wife trying to get control of her husnabd doesn’t seem to have been stated before Adam and Eve sinned. It is stated that they will be one. Again, Eve was intended to be a helpmeet. In Hebrew the word is ‘etzer,’which we find in connection with the Lord too, namely ‘Eben-etzer’. The word Etzer therefore denote a source of help and not of service of a subordinate!
However, our God is God of order, and order is maintained with hierarchy. which is: God->Jesus Christ->the church-> Elders-Deacons-Family-> husband->wife->Children.
The command “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ,” precedes the command, “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord,” and also “Children, obey your parents in the Lord.”(Eph.5:21,22;6:1) Where there is true love there would not be any problem for submission. One who has the authority could exercise it effectively in all humility. In the kingdom of God and so also in the family of God, he who is the greatest is the servant of all. This is the pre-sin condition for the redeemed of the Lord. If the balance is maintained there wo’nt be violence in the home. Again, our primary submission is to God and therefore submission to other authority in its contravention is uncalled for. Order and structure doesn’t go against equal now, does it?
And honestly, I think if a husband is stupid, ignorant or immoral, the wife should have no problem, leading him. And there is nothing bad in it.
As for one wife, it thought it was quite clear, the leader are said to have one wife because they are to be leaders, if they will have multiple wives then surely people will find an excuse too. This is actually a more tight rule so that not even the leaders are spared. And leaders are to be appointed from the church so you can see in this way everyone should be following it. unlike a mosque, a church is a proper large institution with a lot human involvement in a lot of things.
The Bible expresses prohibition against polygamy. Those who contend that the Bible never negatively treats polygamy are wrong. Consider the warning again – given to prospective and actual kings of Israel:
“17: Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold” (Deut. 17).
Notice the the two “shall nots,” on multiply wives, multiply silver and gold. Solomon is often sited as proof for the practice of polygamy being right, but Solomon was wrong in all these areas. Solomon had a vast number of horses; he had riches unparallel; and seven hundred wives (I Kgs. 4: 26; Eccl. 1-10; I Kgs. 11: 3). Hence, to use the example of Solomon and his seven hundred wives to argue for polygamy is an example of how simplistically a subject can be approached and dialectically presented. And if Solomon did it, God didn’t condone it.
The ideal marriage, according to God. The very first marriage, Adam and Eve, in many ways serves as a prototype, if you will. Notice that God knew that it was not good that Adam be alone and God provided for Adam a “help meet” (counter part that was a complement to Adam, Gen. 2: 18). Observe how God did not simply provide another man, but for Adam God made woman, the “glory of the man” (Gen. 2: 18ff., I Cor. 11: 7ff.). Moreover when God instituted marriage, it was one man and one woman (Gen. 2). If polygamy is the “ideal,” as some say, why, then, did not God create Eve, Sue, Jane, etc. for Adam?
Some of the most beautiful teaching relative to the intimacy and duration of marriage resides in Malachi 2: 15:17
“But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the LORD was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth.
Notice how the practice of many wives just does not fit into the passage. However, how about all the references to polygamy in the Bible?
Just because the Bible mentions a trait or act of an individual, even a godly person, does not necessarily mean that the Bible endorsed such. The mentioning of Noah becoming drunk and disgracing himself is mentioned, but certainly not condoned (Gen. 9: 20ff.). I submit that God was not pleased with polygamy.
We know that God intended for one man, one woman and that this relationship was to be for the duration (Matt. 19: 4ff., the only allowable cause for divorce is fornication). Yet, we also read of a divorce provision for a cause other than fornication (Deut. 24: 1-4). This divorce concession was not given for the pleasure of flippant husbands, but was actually for the protection of the women. Thus it was relative to polygamy. God put in place monogamous marriage, but man within a short time became dissatisfied with one woman (Gen. 4: 19). Hence, God then sought to regulate the polygamous practice (Ex. 21: 10). Notwithstanding, God was never pleased with polygamy or divorce for a cause other than fornication (cp. Mal. 3: 16).
Polygamy is expressly denounced pertaining to the leaders of God’s people.
“A leader then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach,” “6: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly” (I Tim. 3; Tit. 1).
The expression “husband of one wife” (andra mias gunaikos) is used. This construction requires marriage (present marriage) but forbids polygamy.
Thus in the case of the Hebrew leaders (the kings) and in the case of the rulers of God’s people today (cp. Heb. 13: 17), having more than one wife is expressly forbidden. Why would one think such would not also follow regarding those under these men?
We must realize that emotionalism and popularity do not establish God’s norm. In Islamic teachings a man may have more than one wife. Some believe that today there are up to sixty thousand Mormon polygamists in Utah. As seen, polygamy is practiced even legally in many places in one third of the world’s population and that there is a movement underway to legalize multiple wives in America. However, God’s teaching remains one man, one woman (Matt. 19: 4ff., I Cor. 7, Rom. 7: 3, 4, Eph. 5: 22ff.).
There is a reason for the verses about divorce also applies to polygamy, at the time of Jesus polygamy had severely reduced in Jews and was not a big issue as divorce. But the command is clear of you leave your wife and marry another than you are committing adultery, here the emphasis is on divorce but the underlying meaning is clear, if you have another woman in your present marriage, it is wrong. Consider the command carefully, even when divorcing your wife and getting another women (when legally you are free from your first wife), is considered wrong, then who much more it is wrong when you are not divorced and get another woman. see my point!
The bible clearly says that Husband and wife are one body, not multiples.
About Eating Swine: There is a difference of opinion here, Orthodox Christianity forbids eating swine, the more liberal Christians today do not think that this applies to them but only to the Jews of that particular time. A similar example would be that the Islamic teaching about punishing a thief is cutting his hands however a lot of Muslims and Muslim states do not practice it, even though it is commanded. Or the Hijab is mandatory and doesn’t Islam teaches that no women should see a “Na-Muharam” man. but again if your daughter or wife goes to a university or school or even shopping without a hijab, doesn’t it goes parallel against your teaching, please forgive my use of example, I am merely pointing out that these kind of actions are open to interpretation. Liberal and moderate people either Christian or Muslim do not adhere to the strict code presented, at least not always.
I however think that if God forbids something, we should not do it. But there are problems on this issue, for example, one problem is in Korea, in Korea pork is one of the most cheap meat available, and Christians, Muslim and atheists alike eat pork, because the majority is very poor. I know eating pork is forbidden but I also do not want to be labeling anyone who eats pork with a “destined for hell” label.
Cherry picking verses is always a bad technique to support any argument but sometimes there is no way around it. About your argument about verses on wives and also verses on eating swine both apply to us from the O.T is very simple. Jesus in the N.T, spoke against polygamy and divorce so we do not have to go back to the Mosaic law to get support for it. But in reality the O.T applies to Christians not on the whole. Ceremonial and ritual Mosaic law does not apply to us. The rest does, with some exceptions which only apply to the Jews. but traditional Christians mostly do not eat pork, some of them if they do eat pork are simply eating because of culture or other aspect not that they are allowed or encouraged by the Bible. I mean I know a lot of Muslims who eat pork and drink but again I would not say that they are encouraged by your religion. Mass public action should not be taken as de-facto standard.
As for Usury
again, it is a financial system, it is not based on the Bible. So I would not say why Christians do it or not do it. You see this becomes a pointless topic, because it is open to interpretation.
But the Jews whom this law was given 3500 years ago, did not have to interpret it independently, it was straight forward to them. As I said above Christianity does not provide legal laws except a few. The reason is unlike Jews and Muslims, a universal state order and practice with certain said laws is not required. Neither they were aiming to found a country in the first place. So this way govt systems and laws given to the Jews serve as a guide but Christians are not always obligated to follow them. Orthodox and traditional Christians do follow these laws but the liberal or modern Christians often do not. I guess that is why there are always sects in every religion.
Also there is a misconception about the western world that they are Christian states, yes by census they are but by law and structure they are secular, their laws help Christians as much as it helps Muslims.
Open liberalism of Christianity in some way, is helpful too and more tolerant than Muslim states, for example, the last Pope allowed a mosque to be built in the Vatican city. But i am sure the Muslims wont allow a church in Mecca and Medina. The Saudi authorities adhere to the austere Wahhabi version of Sunni Islam, ruthlessly banning all non-Muslim religious rituals and confiscate Bibles and crucifixes.
About adultery, Jesus himself, said that adultery is immoral and in the beginning I have given a lot of verses from the new testament. You are actually confusing two different things based on a single assumption, though I can see being a non-christian you would not know much about how it works in detail. About your argument that if some verses apply from the Mosaic law than why not the rest, I have explained that above. THE MORAL LAWS APPLY TO US, ceremonial, ritual do not, and legalistic again are open to be adapted but are not encouraged neither denied, this is open to interpretation.
For example the law to stone the whore is in Moses law and quran also stipulates a punishment, but in Gospel of John Chapter 8, Jesus did something remarkable,
“At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. (if he says forgive her, then Jesus would go against the law of Moses, if he says stone her, then he goes against his own teaching or love and forgiveness)
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
“No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.””
So you can see that he didn’t broke the law but questioned that whoever is executing the punishment, has he never sinned? If he had sinned than that does not qualifies him to stone someone to death. so that is why Christians are always encouraged to follow a way which is more in the spirit of love and compassion. But this is not so cut and dry, for example, sin should never be tolerated, neither immoral behavior but not in a militant manner but as Paul suggested, if someone doesn’t repent, cast him out. They should either repent as the woman did or they should leave, as Paul said.
God can forgive anyone. We are told to hate the sin rather than stone the sinner. And this is why the requirement for being a Christian leader as I quoted above are so strong and pivotal. if some one deviates from it, he does not belong to the office. Love is a center pillar of Christianity but not as a license to sin but to get the sinner out of sin.
About Mistakes of Prophet,
Well for the very same reason, the Bible listed the mistakes done by prophets, and Christians in sincere respect have never altered or taken these kind of things out.
About marriage of Ayesha at such a young age, even though it may be the usual custom of that time and you respect that, that is fine, since it is your book and your teachings. I however do not agree with it, marrying a six year old, to me does not seem normal in any circumstances. If you say the prophet was as good as he was then he surely must have seen the implication and what kind of example was he leaving behind for others. But again, you have your reasons and since you do not object to that, the point of debating the fact dies for this particular point.
About Khadija, as I said, even if I get any other source, you can always object that it is fabricated, fair enough, it is a matter of contradiction. though I am still interested in my original question, even if I agree that she was not a Jew, my question was what nikkah was performed. also it is interesting to note when Khadija died, she was buried but up-till then the Prayer for the dead (Numaz-e-Jinaaza) had not been revealed to the prophet as it came later. Any ideas, what kind of burial ceremony was used. Now, I am not asking these questions to argue with you, unless something is plainly a point of interest. These are more out of cursorily. Would help me understand in some depth that if a law or method is nt given, how it is approached, especially in the life of the Prophet.
I hope I have cleared up some things for you. Thanx for the wonderful discussion once again. and hope to hear from you soon.
God bless you.
Thanks again for your time and patience in responding to my queries…
I have given a lot of thought to your responses to my questions. The following are my thoughts:
i. Christians’ role model is only Jesus – This is understood and needs no further explanation. I already explained the difference in Islam’s perspective on this issue, i.e. that Jesus Christ (PBUH) was one of the mightiest Messengers of God and his mother was the best of all women; he was a Prophet sent to the children of Israel to bring them back on to the straight path; he was born miraculously without a father, however he was a human being, not divine.
ii. Role Models and Sinfulness – Thank you for providing those verses. I think they help to further bolster my point that it is not possible for Prophets to commit major sins e.g. adultery or incest. As the verses clearly state that such an individual can never inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. No doubt, every man/woman may repent and God is Ever Merciful… However, the reason that the Prophets were sent was to be a shining example to rest of mankind that it is possible to be human, to feel temptation, yet overcome one’s animal desires. Else… if they committed acts worse than you or I then why should I want to follow them, or even look up to them??
I would like to further add here, as I mentioned before, that Islam refutes the claim that the Prophets could commit heinous acts such as those mentioned above. So the question arises why are they documented in the Bible then? The answer to this is provided for us in the Qur’an, and that is that the Bible we have in front of us today, is not the original revelation that was sent down upon the Prophets. The Bible has undergone many changes over its lifetime, some verses have been added, some removed, and some have changed. Furthermore, entire books that were originally part of the Bible were removed because they did not comply with the likes and dislikes of the powers that be. Thus, it is now God’s Words mixed with the words of man. Unfortunately many changes that found their way into the Bible were made to suit the whims of certain men whose intentions were not entirely pure. And thus they accused great Prophets of horrible crimes… and this is precisely why another revelation had to be sent, in order to renew the true religion of God and clear the holy names of the Prophets. This new revelation was the Qur’an.
iii. Rights of Women in Christianity – Again.. I have no doubt many Christians today give women the ‘same’ rights as they give to men. However, my issue was not what the Christians do, my question was in regards to what God and the Prophets have said. I could read the commentary of the verses you sent, but that commentary was made by men… not by God or his Prophets. You mentioned Paul, but I do not take Paul as any authority on the subject… only God and the Prophets. From what I can tell, the text of the Bible clearly distinguishes between the rights of men and women. I’m not saying the Bible puts women down, I have no right to say that, however it clearly seems to suggest that men and women do not have the same rights or roles to play in society. Furthermore, I’ve lived most of my life in Christian countries, and many of my friends were very conservative, very practising, very proud Christians… they were always very clear about who is the head of the household and who has the final say, i.e. the husband. It was very similar to Islam. So I disagree with you that in all Christian countries men and women have the same rights.
As far as Paul is concerned, I personally believe he is actually the true founder of the Christianity we have in front of us today… because he has written most of the books of the Bible, none have been written by Jesus (PBUH) himself. Furthermore people like Paul and St. Augustine introduced concepts into Christianity which Jesus never spoke of… concepts such as the divinity of Christ or the Original Sin… Jesus never claimed divinity, nor commanded people to worship him. It was people such as Paul. This again is why we say that the Bible we have today is not the Gospel that was revealed to Christ.
iv. One Wife – Fine… I understand that you have a different interpretation of the verses you sent me… that’s your right. However, I do have a problem when you take your ‘interpretation’ of certain events and verses and then say that you know what the will of God is. This is extremely dangerous territory to be treading into. You, a finite temporary being, are claiming to know the mind and the workings of an infinite being who is the Creator, Sustainer, and Owner of the entire universe. Furthermore, you take your viewpoint as absolute fact and then try and enforce it on the rest of humanity… this is clear injustice. One can most certainly ponder over the wisdom of God when certain events come to pass, or in certain commandments, and one can certainly propose that something or other may be the Will of God; however unless God makes His Will known explicitly, it is not for humans to conclusively say that they know His Will.. because all they have done is interpret one event in the grand scheme of infinite events that only God is fully aware of.
You say that since only Eve was created for Adam, this suggests that God wanted man to have a single mate. I say this is your opinion… based on this opinion you cannot claim to know the Will of God. I could retort and say that well since the sons and daughters of Adam could marry one another, it is the Will of God that brothers should be able to marry their sisters. I realize that this is extreme, but when you say its okay to claim to know the Will of God based on certain events, then you are giving a green light to extremists to do what they please and claim this is the Will of God. Thus we have people like George Bush attacking Iraq and saying its because God told him to do it… Or the Pope calling the Crusades because its the Will of God.
We know God detests murder, because He has explicitly states He detest it; we know that God hates adultery because He explicitly stated He hates it; We know that God wants human beings to honor their mother and their father, because He explicitly states it. However we cannot take one event, or take a narrow interpretation of certain verses and claim that God hates polygyny… This is injustice. Muslims say that Adam had his shariah (his laws) based on his circumstances, thus certain things were permissible, others were not, for his time. However, the fact that Abraham and Solomon and Muhammad (Peace be upon them all) took more than one wife clearly shows that this law was not meant for all humanity for all times.
v. Usury/Pork/etc – You say the moral laws of the Old Testament apply to Christians, not the ceremonial/ritualistic ones and the legal ones are open to interpretation. Fine, firstly, I would appreciate it if you would provide me an ‘explicit’ statement from God or Jesus (PBUH) that absolves the Christians from following the clear cut commandments of the Old Testament. This will help me understand I think.
Next, lets take the verse about usury…
“If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury “(Exodus 22:25).
“Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury “(Deut. 23:19).
The above are legal verses. Please explain to me how the above verses can be interpreted to make usury an acceptable practise.
I find it strange that you suggest that such explicit statements in the Bible are open to interpretation, however the verses regarding polygyny, which were clearly speaking to only certain individuals, are not open to interpretation.
Allah says in a warning tone to the Jews in the Qur’an: “So do you then believe in part of the book and disbelieve in part??”
With all due respect, you are free to follow the Bible as you please, but do justice to the book. If you claim all of it is the Word of God, then follow all of it. It is not right to follow certain verses and choose not to follow others, without just reason.
vi. Jesus and the woman being stoned – Again, I see a lot of interpretation of events going on here. So, I could reasonably take this event and say that from now on murderers will not be punished, nor thieves, nor adulterers, because we love our fellow human beings and it is not for us to judge them. I would like to ask which ideal Christian society in the past actually made this work? It seems this will lead up to nothing but an anarchy. Because this is not how the world practically works. A very small minority of people will always obey the law simply because they love their fellow man and know its right to follow the law. However, a large population will always need to have the threat of punishment hanging over their heads in order to deter them, else they will go ahead and break the law. And a small minority will even still try and get past the law. This is why every society has laws along with checks and balances in place to enforce those laws… even Christian ones.
Furthermore, I don’t see how based on the interpretation of this event Christians decided that now none of the ritual/ceremonial/legal laws of the Jews apply to us any longer and that the important thing is that we all love one another.
vii. Differences of opinion among Muslims on Hijab, etc. – I would like to clarify this point. There is very little difference of opinion here. The difference in understanding is usually a result of lack of awareness of what the Qur’an and hadith actually say. Because unfortunately in most Muslim countries, many people do not even have the basic knowledge of Islam. When the relevant verses of the Qur’an are shown to them, along with the explanations in hadith, they usually accept. There is an opinion amongst some so-called scholars of Islam who say that women don’t have to wear hijaab and that other laws don’t apply either. However, in the vast majority of cases, when their arguments are carefully studied, what one finds is that their opinion is not based on revelation, rather on the insistence that Islam must conform to western values.
viii. Mistakes of the Prophet – Brother John… would you equate the event where the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) decided that he would not eat honey any longer because one of his wives claimed it made his breath smell bad with another event where another Prophet supposedly committed incest????? The two cannot be compared in any way whatsoever. What Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did was make a lapse in judgement, he did not commit any major sin here. Please don’t compare such things… this is an insult to Muslims. As I mentioned earlier… Prophets may have made small mistakes or lapses in judgement, but we refute the claim that they committed major sins.
ix. Marriage to Khadija – As we are aware, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) continued receiving revelation over a period of 23 years. Thus, the earlier part of the revelation, specifically the Makkan verses, focused mostly upon ‘Aqaaid (or beliefs) and less on legal issues and rituals. Thus we find that even though the Muslims were commanded to pray from a very early time in Makkah, the prayer that all Muslims pray today was revealed in the 12th year of revelation. Thus, in the earlier days they prayed in a different manner, and at different times during the day; however once the specific details of prayer were revealed, then it was incumbent on all Muslims to pray in that manner, i.e. the manner we pray in today. In the same way, while the details of other laws/rituals had not been revealed, more than likely the Muslims continued to practise what they had practised before. Thus many drank alcohol till the law that forbade it came down, and many practiced usury until it was forbidden. Thus, I can only guess that the marriage of Muhammad (PBUH) to Khadija was however Arabs would get married in earlier times. Especially because this was the time that no revelation had been sent down and he had not even been informed of his prophethood.
Thank you again for sharing your knowledge with me..
May Allah guide us all towards His Pleasure…
I do not intend to muddy the issue with the usual cliche’s but since you have I will be answering them for once. The following may sound harsh but believe me I write this with no ill will. You have your reasons to believe what you do, I have mine. You like vanilla, i like chocolate.
I agree that any interpretation done by anyone and in any religion is bound to be subjective, however if such a thing is true than I could very well say that the whole of quran was not penned down in the life of Mohammed and the Ahadiat came later,all of them from mortal, fragile men, so in that case this throws your argument against your own belief. most of the quran doesn’t even tell you things in detail. you do not even have the way detailed way to pray or take a bath according to the seera if not because of Ahadiat, so in that respect i could very well argue that like Paul, the sahabi’s and later people shaped Islam, since they wrote all the seer’a and the ahadiat,
About the changing of the Bible, sadly you believe in myths without evidence. the oldest copies of the new testament are from the 1st century A.D, the first compiled collective Bible in the 4th century, both predates Islam. of course Muslims have to say that it was changed because lets be honest if you agree that they did not changed than historically you would have no reason to believe in a later book namely quran, so lets just say it is necessary statement for you rather than a true one. please also cite references of quran about the changing of Bible.
“If you doubt what We have revealed to you [Muhammad], Ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.”
if those scriptures had been changed why on earth would Allah tell your prophet to go to them. doesn’t make sense to me. remember this is the 6th century A.D. so if you say they were changed later then clearly you are misled and misinformed as I told you the oldest books of the Bible are dated (even carbon dated) to be before Islam and they are intact with what we have today. and if you say they were already changed than it is a contradiction. although the Bible would not need quran’s support to indicate authenticity since quran is younger and came centuries later but nonetheless it is a question for your part. Jesus clearly said in the N.T that the Bible can’t be changed, so go figure that out. I would trust the world of Jesus than quran. also be careful when you say statements like you the Bible is changed through history by whims of men, you may very well be wrong, since you have’t studied it or its history. read authenticated sources rather than googling up websites which may be biased, read earliest books before you make eligible claims, this is a humble suggestion. The bible is the most printed book in history, do you know what would happen if someone changed it, it will immediately be spotted. much like the quran. you can’t do such a thing, have you ever heard of any religion changing their own book because of unknown future events, change needs a motive, and on a global scale. everyone can not change the bible at the same time around the whole world and that those changes would be the same. It is idiotic to imagine in elephantine proportions. and a horrible thing to say without research into it.
further more about your claim that quran is a new revelation, can you tell me what newness did it produce? To me, it copied everything from already existing religions, took their stories, modified it a little and summarized it and put it in the quran. I have 13 qurans and none makes a new claim. the hajj, the numaz, the stoning of the devil, the reverence of the hajjir-e-aswad, all were present customs before Islam, all were assimilated into the new book because a united Arab was needed. Tauheed and Fast were the oldest Jewish customs, nothing new hardly. even the concept of wazoo existed before Islam, the name of Allah existed before Islam, as the prophet’s father was named Abdullah,
have you never read about the Muslim expansions under caliphs and how there were different qurans at the time and armies were sent to destroy the qurans that were not similar to the ones they had. come on, you must have studied that. if you haven’t you should. And later when most of the sahabi’s were dead they decided to jot down everything. so please do not think that quran came from heaven in a leather bound journal, that is not how it happened. if you think like this, that is a delusion.
about one wife, I would not expect you to understand the theology of the Bible since it is very different from yours. you have polygamy in your religion built in and encouraged, Christians don’t. of course we say it is unjust and immoral. it is not my teaching but my book. you obviously do not expect me to support polygamy. first it is unjust to women, second it creates problems. but you justifying polygamy is simply because you revere the man who had 13 wives, so I would say that it is natural that you defend it. but polygamy is not just and not ok, ask a moral woman, she will tell you better.
I mean your book allows a marriage for one night. on what grounds do you say it is more moral. Now the so called guardians of the faith and the book like the suadi’s even allowed and legalized a marriage for one night. and do not counter it with western examples of vulgarity and marriages and divorce because they are not from religion neither do they have any support from them. but the marriage for one night only is actually supported from your religion not from secular laws. we are not talking about people who follow their whims but what a religion teaches.
Some of the surrah”s are filled with promises of women and sex for those who enter paradise, please read the surah’s about women and alcohol and teenage boys in paradise. read about the promises of 70 women, and then please tell me, what do you expect to do with these 70 women in paradise, in the presence of God, drinking alcohol. you surely wont be playing cards with them when one man is given the sexual stamina of 70 men or 100 men. if you are talking about newness than perhaps this is the only newness I found was that such sexual activity will be done in heaven, right under God’s nose. This is far from holy or moral.
please read my post carefully , i said usury is not a biblical financial system. why Christians follow it is the same reason, why Muslims eat pork and drink alcohol and the shiekhs and other Arabs have 30, 40 or fifty wives, and Muslim terrorists are blowing other people with suicide bombs and terrorism.
you said clearly yourself about hijab. please do not pose the answer like there is a united Islam, a lot of interpretation are in circle, Sunni’s follow one, wahabi’s another, shiia’s another, modern muslims one, and conservatives another. Sects are in almost every religion. even the interpretation you are writing is not your own, but your scholars with tafseers. and everyone thinks he is right. so whatever sect you belong to you think that is right. In this way and by your approach, I would say that almost all things become arbitrary, that to me sounds a dangerous ground you tread as well.
Brother Absar, if the prophets made small mistakes and not huge one, is your belief than so be it. I would not ask you to change it because I say so. But my book tells me what happened, really happened. I would not say i have insulted anyone, much less any prophet. why would I do that for. I apologize if you feel insulted as a Muslim, but in all honesty most of the practices like above to me are unjust and immoral to me. and I can not in my clear conscience endorse them or condone them. for a role model, I have Jesus, who never sinned or erred, not even minor ones. he is perfect and was never even rebuked or corrected by God either. so anyone who does anything else makes no difference to what I follow. I see they do need God too. you can believe of course what you think is right. I am no one to object that.
you clearly do not understand how the Bible works, so i do not blame you. your words in my opinion are more in defiance rather than actual reasoning, which is normal. no offense, most of the Muslims I have seen are like this, they study less, they assert more, which is quite sad.
My original intent was plain and simple, if you want a better Islam than you are seeing in the world then you must make it more moral rather than only saying it is. if it is peaceful, practice it don’t just preach it. one person can be wrong, two can be may be hundred, but if the rest of the world, billions of people from all faith see Islam as a danger than you should at least do justice to common sense and think that there is actually something wrong rather than labeling it as misconceptions. for example, women are bound to be in households, always in hijab, no fancies, nothing, just say it as it is, dont sugar coat it. Now there is a woman who is an imam, has opened a mosque, is that supported from quran, yes, no, however. but you would certainly say it wrong, without knowing the heart of that woman. it is the tolerance of the western society in general that allows such acts in your religious countries, she would have been killed. so please, if your book has peace, show it the world rather than just say there is. about your counter argument of holocaust, I would only say that it is a tragedy but the very laws that put you in jail for supporting antisemitism are designed to prevent such a thing from happening again. they certainly wont kill you for it, much like Muslims who kill because they fear “Islam is in danger”, no offense this is not my line but your leaders who have saying this and deluding people.
You have your right to believe what you like and in that you may be right. i have my reasons which I have expressed. Thank you for entertaining me and blessings to you. I think we are concluded here, since from your statement that what I am saying must be changed,( which can not actually happen, except in your imagination) then the point of debating anything else fails.
God bless you.
Thank you again for your time John…
I have carefully read your post… I could go through it again, one item at a time, and write a detailed, logical response; however my purpose for getting into a discussion is to try and arrive at the truth… not to argue for the sake of argument. From this point forward… It is clear that the opposite will begin to happen.
Thus… we conclude and agree to disagree…
This is my response to “John A. David”, whose arguments are laughable so simplistic that anyone who has a rudimentary understanding of the issues concerned would be able to answer it.
“About the changing of the Bible, sadly you believe in myths without evidence. the oldest copies of the new testament are from the 1st century A.D, the first compiled collective Bible in the 4th century, both predates Islam. ”
The oldest Bible “manuscript” from the 1st century is a small passage from John, the P52, and it is only the size no bigger than a credit card! Anything else from the 4th century onwards don’t even agree with one another. Hardly a flattering record, if I may so myself.
“please also cite references of quran about the changing of Bible.”
“Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.” (Qur’an, 2:77-79)
It’s very obvious that it refers to the Bible, yes?
“as I told you the oldest books of the Bible are dated (even carbon dated) to be before Islam”
So what if they are “carbon-dated before Islam” when the oldest Mss you “have” is no bigger than a credit card?
“Jesus clearly said in the N.T that the Bible can’t be changed”
Please show exactly where Jesus (PBUH) ever referred to the Bible as the “New Testament” or that he said, conclusively, that the “New Testament” (as a body work) cannot be changed.
“your claim that quran is a new revelation, can you tell me what newness did it produce? To me, it copied everything from already existing religions, took their stories, modified it a little and summarized it and put it in the quran. ”
That is where your understanding of the Qur’an (and Islam) is wrong. Islam never claimed to be a “new religion”, it is a continuation of the old which confirms the truth before it and discards the innovations and falsehood that were introduced before it. The concept of Tawheed and the fast are definitely examples that confirm the true practices of the religion that remain untampered by man.
“have you never read about the Muslim expansions under caliphs and how there were different qurans at the time and armies were sent to destroy the qurans that were not similar to the ones they had.”
Now here, you are simply lying through your teeth. No such incident ever took place, so this is something you will need to account for. It seems that Christianity teaches you to lie and create falsehood, just as Paul of Tarsus did.
“I mean your book allows a marriage for one night.”
Another falsehood again, refer to the paragraph above!
“Some of the surrah”s are filled with promises of women and sex for those who enter paradise”
That is quite below the belt for a Christian to be commenting on such things, since Jesus PBUH in the Gospels also promised a Paradise filled with pirate treasure (Matthew 19:21) and free mansions (John 14:2).
“you clearly do not understand how the Bible works”
Probably the only truism that can describe you and your writings in this whole macabre piece of nonsense you call “writing”.
LOL…while your passion to defend what you think is right, is quite commendable. I am not surprised by your understanding of religion and history. Well as I said above in my post, I found most people in your religion to be like this.
Anyways. (Qur’an, 2:77-79) does not refer to the Bible. Lol I would say you had to stretch it very far to imply that. It could have been for your sahabi’s, anyone. You are standing on very thin ice here buddy, not enough. Since you are younger than us in religion, I assume that you must say this in order to claim your book as the final one, a necessary statement. You even do not have a definitive evidence to back up your claim. or show me, just by saying that something changed, doesn’t make it true. you have to show what changed, what was original and what not. since you lack both. i would find you ineligible to even start the issue. Just because a verse you think means something. So be practical for once or stop wasting time.
I am sorry but I never said that Islam brought something new, Absar’s original post made that implication. I simply refuted it. but again even if you have a mediocre sense of satire, my criticism stands still. The Bible promises mansions but pirate treasure…lol? well I do not know how you come by this information. However, having a mansion is not a moral position to defend, having sex and drinking alcohol in presence of God with 70 women, certainly is. So its not below the belt. It is what is you are promised. so do not try to say that it is only just because we have something similar. no sir, we do not have anything similar like this and thank God for that. God is holy. You can’t have sex in a place of worship on earth. How in all eternity do you plan to do it in the presence of God.
Tell me Do women also get 70 men in heaven or just one?
About Muslim expansions, it is in your own book, you do not need to rely on my lying teeth to know the truth, just open a history book, even of your own historians, and read. Do not rest on what they teach you in the standard text book, go beyond a little, so that you can assimilate more knowledge about your past, which might be true rather than fantasy fabricated accounts.
Also about my lying about one night marriages, can you tell me what is mu’tah and misyaar in Islamic teachings. Please elaborate and then tell me, what morality do you have in store and what reasoning and lengths you will go to justify such immoral practices. both of these forms of marriages have expiry dates. At least being one night the minimum in which it is more frequently used than ever and the saudi’s actually made it legal now, in fact they did it very recently. Sugar coating the truth that this is allowed in your religion makes it no more better. It is what it is.
I can feel your position Menj, you will certainly come out with your own satirical reasoning to justify your practices, go on by all means. That is the best you may do to justify such things, you have no other choice. I do not expect you to say that such things are false or wrong, this is part of your religion, you ain’t gonna deny it. But do justice and say what it is rather than keep saying its all good and holy and moral. they aren’t. If you find my opinion laughable, then it is sad because your saying black is white just because your book says its white doesn’t make the black white. Every religion claims it is right and the only way. what makes you think your claims are exclusive and different? They aren’t. Your teaching tell you to kill a man just because he doesn’t respect your prophet, I do not expect any good coming out from there. The best morals taught are already in our books. you are just repeating the same thing and saying you own them which is laughable.
Further reply to John A. David:
“LOL…while your passion to defend what you think is right, is quite commendable.”
So you treat this as one huge joke and are not serious in the pursuit of the truth. Why am I not surprised by such attitude from Christian fascist-Islamophobes like you? Your kind have ceased to amaze me with the sheer ignorance and arrogance, thinking that you can teach Muslims their own religion. Sorry bud, but you just barked up the wrong tree.
“I found most people in your religion to be like this.”
This applies to you and your type more than it does me.
“Anyways. (Qur’an, 2:77-79) does not refer to the Bible.”
Wow, who died and taught you to become an expert in Tafsir (Qur’anic exegesis)? Who was your Sheikh? Who gave you the Ijaza to make sweeping judgements on the Qur’anic exegesis as what you are doing here? Might want to read the tafsirs of Ibn Kathir, As-Suyuti, Zamakshari and many others who not only refute what you are saying, but also made the connection to the Bible, which by the way, DOES NOT have a “1st century Mss” as you falsely claim earlier. Strangely you omitted that little fact even though I did try to hammer it home in my previous response. Again, I shouldn’t be surprised….I know for a fact that you will be unable to respond to that anyway. Yawn…..
“You are standing on very thin ice here buddy”
I have no intention of becoming your “buddy”, nor am I standing on “thin ice” as you arrogantly claim. Why is this suddenly a “contest”?
“Since you are younger than us in religion, I assume that you must say this”
Nothing more than the fallacy of argument from age. Try again.
“I am sorry but I never said that Islam brought something new, Absar’s original post made that implication.”
There is no need to bring Brother Absar into this conversation. It seems that he has done a good job of explaining the issues concerned, but someone had a comprehension problem. So someone else has to come along to hammer the point further into that meatbag you call a “brain”.
“The Bible promises mansions but pirate treasure…”
Gee, I don’t know which is funnier…the promise of pirate treasure in Matthew 19:21 where Jesus is reported to have said to tell his disciples to sell earthly treasures in exchange for treasure in HEAVEN instead, or your repulsive, puerile little lie where you said:
“in presence of God with 70 women”
which you claim is in the Qur’an. So where did the figure of “70 women” come from? There is no Qur’anic verse which says anything to the effect. The fact that you have to make up stories about the Qur’an like this shows that you are running out of arguments. You have nothing to argue against this:
“Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and THOU SHALT HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN: and come and follow me.”
and that is picked up right from the passage in Matthew.
Therefore, my contention still stands: you are hitting below the belt by alluding your imaginary Paradise which has 70 women in it, instead of addressing the issue where Jesus clearly and specifically PROMISED that his followers will have PIRATE TREASURE in Paradise. So much for being moral and being preachy about it, huh? Is it moral to sell everything on earth in order to fulfil your LUST to obtain PIRATE TREASURE in Paradise? You tell me.
“You can’t have sex in a place of worship on earth.”
We Muslims don’t have any problems about having sex in Paradise. It is a basic need for mankind, just as food and drink is. However, the Qur’an have clearly stated that Paradise is beyond the imagination of men, so if it alludes to “sex” it will not be in the same way as one would be doing it right now on earth.
And again, it is funny for you to speak out against sex in Paradise when you Christians obviously have no problems lusting after PIRATE TREASURE in Paradise. Sex is a no-no but gaining PIRATE TREASURE is okay? Wow, this dichotomy is quite incomprehensible to me.
“About Muslim expansions, it is in your own book”
Now you are telling me that the Muslim campaigns are recorded in the Qur’an? Are you confusing yourself here and unable to distinguish between Scripture and a historical account?
“Also about my lying about one night marriages, can you tell me what is mu’tah and misyaar in Islamic teachings.”
Mut’aah and Misyaar are two different things, and they definitely do not involve “one night marriages”. Conflating between the two shows your ignorance of the subject matter because the two are not indistinguishable. I suggest that you should go back to studying the basics of Islam, instead of mixing up concepts that you have no understanding about in order to polemicise about them.
“I can feel your position Menj”
It is clear to me that you are here only to attack and demean Islam, by picking up issues that are not often discussed by laymen Muslims in order to polemicise and sow doubt about Islam among the Muslims. Your presence here has nothing to do with the truth and everything about bad-mouthing Islam and making it look bad. Too bad for you that I am here. I have some knowledge of Islam and Islamic history, and I have studied Judeo-Christianity for ten years. The polemics you introduce here about Islam are not new to me, and they have been discussed to the death over the internet over and over again. If you can find this page via Google, you will be able to find the responses to those very polemics. However, as you are not in pursuit of the truth and are in the business of missionarising your religion, I will expect you to 100% ignore what I have said here and continue with your quest of beating a dead horse.
And again, I will repeat here that THERE IS NO FIRST CENTURY MSS BIBLE. NO SUCH MSS EXIST. What you have are second century MSS, among them is the P52 and even that is the size of a credit card! So how can a Christian claim to have an authentic text of the New Testament when what they have are already corrupted/missing/contradictory in the first place??
Plse remember that Satan was a great scholar. don’t waste your energy on a Kafir bent to enter Hell. your explanations are crystal clear for everyone to understand except for the one who does not want to see. Lakoum deenoukoum wa liya deen.